In which I complain about something stupid

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch) 11/03/2016 at 14:32 • Filed to: None

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So...I was just looking at Chevy’s Mexico site, as I do every Thursday, and I noticed that the S10 (Colorado) has a payload of 1195 kg, or 2629 lbs. That’s a lot, and it’s WAY more than the US market colorado in any trim (which is around 1600 lbs). It’s the same story with the Holden Colorado which has, more or less, the same payload rating. Why? Looking into it, I find that the GCWR for these trucks is 3150 kg or 6930 lbs, in the US the GCWR is 6200 lbs at best. Stronger springs? I don’t think thats the whole story, because if you look into the axle department, the trucks rear axle is rated elsewhere at 4070 lbs and here it’s 3300....It’s the same truck and axle!

What’s the deal?

I find this a common thread for trucks sold outside of the US. I remember hearing apocryphal stories of how when the F250 was initially released in the Australian market it was not well received because it had lower payload ratings than much lighter trucks (plus it only came with an I6) which begs the question: why are our payloads and axle ratings lower? The easy answer would be lawyers, but I have to hope there is a better answer than that. Anyone have any insight?

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:40

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It likely has to do with differing standards. They can only match a standard here with so much while elsewhere they can match those standards with higher payload on the same equipment.

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/towing/1502-sae-j2807-tow-tests-the-standard/

duurtlang > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:41

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Maybe something somewhat similar to tow ratings?

HammerheadFistpunch > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 11/03/2016 at 14:41

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but an axle rating should be an axle rating, no? I mean...its all just bearings and shafts

CalzoneGolem > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:43

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That truck is amazing looking!

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:43

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They actually do it just to confuse HammerheadFistpunch

atfsgeoff > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:43

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Lawyers and marketing. Payload and tow ratings are often arbitrary.

The 1990 Crown Victoria was rated to tow up to 5,000lbs.

A 2008 Crown Vic, with stronger frame, more power, bigger brakes, better suspension, steering, and tires, was rated to tow a paltry 1500lbs. Why? Because marketing. Ford wanted people who tow things to buy their trucks.

Why rate a Colorado for 2629lbs payload when you can sell the customer a Silverado for way more profit margin?

HammerheadFistpunch > duurtlang 11/03/2016 at 14:43

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Well tow ratings make sense because it’s all about the load on the axle and tongue weight standards which differ from region but this...I mean its the exact same axle we get, but in one area its “max” is 700 lbs more than in another. it just doesn’t make any sense.

bhtooefr > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:43

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There’ll be a bunch of factors in play.

Save a few bucks building the truck by building it less durably.

Upsell someone to a more profitable, larger truck with the payload that they need, even when they don’t want the big truck. Then, get them used to having the big truck, so they don’t want to downsize.

Consider that Americans demand more acceleration and hill climbing ability, and therefore demand bigger engines that don’t package well in the smaller trucks, to move a given load. So, reduce the payload on a small truck to ensure that there’s adequate acceleration at full load.

All of this doesn’t work in other markets, because the big truck is often too big to even fit in the roads, and the worse fuel consumption of a big truck with a big engine isn’t acceptable, so small heavy duty trucks are a thing.

HammerheadFistpunch > CalzoneGolem 11/03/2016 at 14:44

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Trays are the best, I wish we had these as factory options here.

HammerheadFistpunch > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 11/03/2016 at 14:44

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its working.

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:45

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Axle weight is the maximum weight that can be placed on that axle and includes the suspension and chassis limits.

For Sweden > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:45

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I’m guessing the USA and Mexico have different formulas for max payload capacity. If I’m remembering correctly, the US DOT uses some mountain in Colorado, and trucks have to drive up it at 70 miles per hour. Whatever they can carry while doing that is the max payload.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:48

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Perhaps a national requirement that means the ‘GCWR’ may only be a certain percentage of the tare weight? I don’t have facts and figures to hand, but it shouldn’t be hard to work out if, say, all US trucks have a GCWR of 155% of their tare.

HammerheadFistpunch > atfsgeoff 11/03/2016 at 14:48

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Tow ratings aren’t arbitrary, they have a method to the madness. Perhaps the reason for the Crown vic was to push people into trucks or maybe it was because they didn’t want to warranty a powertrain that would wear out prematurely doing something its chassis, brakes, and axles could handle, or maybe better data came out that suggest that at high speeds the tow vehicle to trailer weight wasn’t safe, or a new standard was introduced... its rarely just ‘cause. Payload ratings are also not arbitrary, manufactures work really hard to beat the next guy and still have a safe vehicle and they are based on weight balance, axle ratings and vehicle weight.

HammerheadFistpunch > bhtooefr 11/03/2016 at 14:49

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I see that, but, shouldn’t an axle rated at 4000 lbs ALWAYS be an axle rated for 4000 lbs?

CalzoneGolem > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:50

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My dad used to buy bedless trucks and put whatever he wanted on. Which was usually a wooden flat bed. I still remember going and picking up a green Silverado and watching the driveshaft spinning. I’d assume that’d be the best option now. I still see bedless trucks offered, but I doubt the Colorado has that option in the states.

HammerheadFistpunch > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 11/03/2016 at 14:50

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So the next question would be: can you just uprate the springs and get a safe legal 700 lb capacity boost? Im skeptical.

HammerheadFistpunch > For Sweden 11/03/2016 at 14:51

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Max payload is all math, tow rating is the davis dam J2807 test.

CalzoneGolem > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:51

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Ah, looks like it is an option: http://blog.caranddriver.com/bedtime-for-box-o-chevy-offering-bed-delete-option-on-colorado/

HammerheadFistpunch > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 11/03/2016 at 14:51

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That’s a thought worth pursuing.

HammerheadFistpunch > CalzoneGolem 11/03/2016 at 14:53

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So, here is a plan. A lifted Z71 duramax , with bed delete, a flat tray and this

drool.

For Sweden > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:54

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Whoops

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:55

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You’re dealing with different standards. It is entirely possible that even the springs are the same. Just different ways of measuring and different pass limits.

An example:

You have a bolt with a breaking strength of 1000LBs, what is it’s working load limit?

For a shelf in a garage, it may be 800LBs

For an alternator on a car, it may be 500LBs

For a driveline part, it may be 400LBs

For an aircraft, it may be 125LBs

The bolt didn’t change, but the rating did.

HammerheadFistpunch > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 11/03/2016 at 14:56

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well you are talking about static vs dynamic loading. In the case of an axle the loads are the same.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > For Sweden 11/03/2016 at 14:57

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So those old 22R Toyotas now have a negative payload rating?

CalzoneGolem > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 14:58

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Illbeinmybunk.jpg

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 15:02

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I’m referring to different standards of what is regarded as safe. Differing applications have different safety factors built in, that’s why chains rated for overhead applications are rated considerably differently from chains not rated for overhead applications. A chain breaks holding something down to a truck bed and a person is much less likely to becomes a fruit rollup than a gantry crane where a welder is working underneath it.

HammerheadFistpunch > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 11/03/2016 at 15:06

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No, I see what you are saying but a limit is a limit, if you downrate the SWL it means you are expecting a dynamic working load that is a multiple of the rating. i.e. an aircraft bolt rated at 125 lbs SWL is expected to see, let’s say, 6-8 G max load as a design parameter. Sure there is a safety factor in everything which is why you never see a SWL at the breaking load, even in static applications.

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 15:07

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I have actually run tests on things where it would pass CSA but not UL and vice versa due to differing acceptance requirements. Even though CSA is Canada’s version of UL.

bhtooefr > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 15:07

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Is it actually the same axle, suspension, and frame? (Consider things like the generation of Tacoma that has the same body as the Hilux of that era, but has a much lighter frame.)

My guess is that the suspension is lighter, to improve ride quality. And, also, that some de-rating occurred for performance reasons.

Oh, also, there’s sometimes fuel efficiency, emissions, safety, and registration cost reasons to manipulate GVWRs. At 6200 lbs, though, I don’t think that’s what’s going on - 6000 (the limit for LLDT or Class 1 trucks), 8500 (the limit for HLDT or Class 2a trucks), and 10000 (the limit for heavy duty class 2b trucks) are the usual lines in the sand for that. (This even extends to option packages on 1-ton (typically Class 3) full size pickups that have a label claiming that the GVWR is 10000, pushing them into Class 2b legally. This only makes sense if the actual 3/4 ton model is under 10000, or if you need a dually for trailer towing but don’t want the registration costs of a 14000 lb GVWR truck.)

atfsgeoff > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 15:08

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You are right, technically it’s not random. Payload and tow ratings are heavily influenced by legal standards and handling tests, which can change over time. But there’s absolutely nothing preventing automakers from intentionally de-rating a vehicle for marketing purposes alone, which is, in fact, what happened with the Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis/Town Car. The same mid-2000s model year Inline-4 RANGERS had higher listed towing capacity than corresponding Crown Vics. Think about that.

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 15:10

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Okay, let me do an even simpler example:

Frank says a quiet car is 70dB.

Al says a quiet car is 60dB.

You have a car that is 65dB.

You can sell it to Frank as a quiet car, but not Al.

Al complains that he can’t get a quiet version of the car while Frank can.

HammerheadFistpunch > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 11/03/2016 at 15:27

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no I see what you are getting at, I really do, but it suggests that US manufacturers arbitrarily decided on an axle limit that is well below its physical capacity. In a hyper-competitive truck space, I have a hard time believing it.

Michael > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 15:30

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Or Mexico requires a Factor-of-Safety somewhat lower than the USA

Roundbadge > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 15:41

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This reminds me of the car-towing-trailer piece you wrote two years ago that currently shows over 68K views.

I’mma go with ‘lawyers’. I mean...I know that’s not as helpful as empirical evidence. It’s just all I’ve got.

Klaus Schmoll > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 15:47

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Different speed limits for towing?

Probenja > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 15:47

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I feel like the US Colorado is quite different underneath than the S10 which is more like the D-Max (yes there are 3 different trucks on the same platform sold under the same brand depending on the market).

Isuzu/Chevrolet D-Max:

Chevrolet S10/Holden Colorado (just got facelifted):

Chevrolet Colorado/GMC Canyon:

Spoon II > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 16:07

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Honestly, I suspect that they’re underselling the small trucks in Canada and the US so that people spring for the big ones. Bigger trucks = bigger profit typically.

benjrblant > For Sweden 11/03/2016 at 16:42

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my 80 series won’t make it up most mountains in colorado above 50mph at empty weight. )=

Svend > HammerheadFistpunch 11/03/2016 at 17:31

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I dare say some of it would be down to engine size and torque ratings.

Some may even be down to conversions of measurement such as the difference between US Imperial (aka US Customary Unit) and the UK Imperial.

Also the U.S. government may be erring on the side of caution knowing some one will exceed it.